Sony: 3D still images in HX20V

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3D still images in HX20V

Topic started on Jun 15, 2012 6:11 PM , last reply on Mar 30, 2013 2:16 AM

seytox

8 posts since
Jun 15, 2012

I bought a new Sony Cyber-Shot HX20V camera a few weeks ago and and it works according to my expectations in all respects except one, "3D still image" mode.

It is told on page
http://www.sony.co.uk/hub/cyber-shot-3d-camera/3/1

"Forget carrying around a bulky camera with two lenses. Cyber-shot 3D cameras can now take 3D still images using just one lens. Simply press the button and your camera shoots two images in rapid succession at different focus settings to create a single 3D still image. Share your 3D images on a 3D TV or VAIO® 3D laptop."

I have also a Vaio VPCF21Z1E/BI 3D laptop which thus should be applicable for showing 3D still images taken by HX20V.
Until now I have taken about 30 3D still images in various situations, but only in two of them some weak hints of a 3D effect may be detected. The others look like normal 2D images. I have tested these images also on a Sony 3D TV (by a local Sony dealer) with similar negative results.

3D panorama pictures are shown prettily, but according to my experience the "3D still image" mode is invalid and just takes 3 times more space (1 jpg file and 1 mpo file containing 2 jpg images) than a 2D still image.

I wonder, why Sony has included such a false "3D still image" mode and gives totally misleading information about capabilities of this camera -- or maybe I have missed some important information about settings of the camera when taking "3D still images" and/or when trying to show them in 3D.

blaireau_photo
1,269 posts since
Jun 15, 2011

Written on Jun 15, 2012 10:57 PM

Hello seytox - Welcome to the Sony Forums

Having recently jumped into the world of 3D myself (much to my wife's annoyance) I know that it can be a little tricky at first to get images displayed in a way that fully shows off the 3D effect.

I don't know too much about the 3D features of VAIO laptops but I am assuming that this too will need to be set up to display 3D images correctly.

From a TV point of view, one thing to make sure of is that when the camera is connected is that the 3D viewing option is set within the camera. This setting can be found under the viewing menu and there is some more information here:

http://esupport.sony.com/docs/dvimag/DSCHX20V_HX30_HX30V_guide/en/contents/05/02/09/09.html

You may find this version of the user guide easier to navigate than the paper version supplied with the camera or a PDF download of it.

Having this option activated will make the camera output the 3D image in a format that the TV can then interpret and show in 3D mode i.e. 'side by side'. If this isn't activated before trying to view the image on a TV, the results may not be as good which may be leading to you not seeing the true 3D effect.

Regarding the laptop, I would advise asking questions about the 3D features of the laptop over in the VAIO section of this forum. There is a note on the official support site that says that viewing these 3D images won't be possible on the laptop but you may wish to get this clarified:

http://www.sony.co.uk/support/en/product/VPCF21Z1E_BI/tips-and-solutions

Thanks,

Simon
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seytox
8 posts since
Jun 15, 2012

Written on Jun 16, 2012 10:56 AM

Thanks Simon for your prompt answer.

I am thoroughly familiar with those two web links you suggested.
I have also had several phone discussions about this topic with people
in the technical support team of Sony without any positive results.

As I said in my original message, I have tested this "3D still image"
property also with a Sony 3D TV without any success. In fact, those
two 3D images showing weak hints of a 3D effect were more 'prominent' on
my VAIO laptop than on a 3D TV.

Thus according to my experience, the problem seems to be related to the
quality of mpo files created by my camera (HX20V).

Until somebody can present a 3D image (as a mpo file) taken on HX20V
(or any similar camera) showing a clear 3D effect (and tell the settings
and conditions required for getting such a picture),
my conclusion is that the "3D still image" feature is practically useless
and should not be mentioned when marketing this (in many ways nice) camera.
Reply
seytox
8 posts since
Jun 15, 2012

Written on Jun 17, 2012 4:10 PM

Re Simon's reply, I forgot to comment on his remark
There is a note on the official support site that says that viewing these 3D images won't be possible on the laptop but you may wish to get this clarified:

I have not found such a note.
On the contrary, a snapshot from an equally official site
http://www.sony.co.uk/hub/cyber-shot-3d-camera/3/1

gives both textual and pictorial evidence indicating that viewing 3D
images should be possible on the laptop.

I repeat my former statement:
Until somebody can present a 3D image (as a mpo file) taken on HX20V
(or any similar camera) showing a clear 3D effect (and tell the settings
and conditions required for getting such a picture),
my conclusion is that the "3D still image" feature is practically useless
and should not be mentioned when marketing this (in many ways nice) camera.
Reply
blaireau_photo
1,269 posts since
Jun 15, 2011

Written on Jun 17, 2012 10:39 PM

Hello again

Thanks for the other link - it would appear that there is some conflicting information about this issue.

Could you please upload one of your 3D images into this thread along with the 3D file(s) and I will try and view it on my 3D set (this won't address the Sony VAIO issue but it will at least allow me to have a look at the extent of the 3D effect and then highlight your issues to other contacts within Sony). If you have any difficulty attaching the files to the forum, please upload them to another file sharing service i.e. Dropbox and then paste the link here.

Thanks,

Simon
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seytox
8 posts since
Jun 15, 2012

Written on Jun 18, 2012 10:30 AM

Now one of my "3D still images" can be downloaded from
http://www.survo.fi/tmp/DSC00480.MPO (about 13 MB)
and there is also a separate jpg file generated simultaneously by HX20V
http://www.survo.fi/tmp/DSC00480.JPG (about 6 MB)

My Vaio VPCF21Z1E/BI laptop detects the mpo file as a stereo file
(the 3D indicator light illuminates telling that 3D function is in use),
but the picture looks the same whether VAIO 3D glasses are used or not.
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cmosse
302 posts since
Feb 24, 2012

Written on Jun 18, 2012 2:56 PM

if the whole image is in focus, it is difficult to produce an effect of 3D with the 3D still image mode, which bascially relies on creating a "depth map" by analyzing ans separating fore- and background from its degree of sharpness. In this case, increase the distance between the subject and background.
However you will find out that with a small sensor camera with a short focal length it is difficult to get good conditions for this kind of 3D image creation. In fact in most shooting conditions you will not be able to get a very noticeable 3D effect. For your reference you can use the 3D freeware to display the L&R images of an MPO file to check the "disparity" (3D parallax): http://stereo.jpn.org/eng/index.html
The 3D sweep panorama function can give much more 3D appearance to the image. If you select 16:9 as aspect ratio you will in fact get a true stereospcopic 3D image in a classical still image format, which can be viewed on 3D TV without the need to pan through the image.
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seytox
8 posts since
Jun 15, 2012

Written on Jun 19, 2012 9:09 AM

Thanks cmosse!
Your comments just confirm my judgement that the "3D still image" mode on
HX20V is worthless in most situations.
Sony is giving misleading information about this feature on official
webpages like
http://www.sony.co.uk/hub/cyber-shot-3d-camera/3/1
I am ready change my opinion if somebody can present examples of
MPO files created by a camera of this type showing a clear
3D effect.
As I said already in my first message, otherwise this is a very good
camera for my purposes. For example, the 3D sweep panorama mode
works excellently.
Reply
blaireau_photo
1,269 posts since
Jun 15, 2011

Written on Jun 19, 2012 11:32 PM

Hello again

Unfortunately I was unable to view the 3D image that you provided but that was more because of issues at my end

It may be a good to see if any other HX20V owners add examples of images that they have taken in order to compare them to your own work. I will also check in on this thread to see if there is any further activity.

Thanks,

Simon
Reply
seytox
8 posts since
Jun 15, 2012

Written on Jun 20, 2012 10:16 AM

In another discussion
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1050&message=39026722&changemode=1
related to the same problem with HX9V, Knallberto told about 10 months ago:
"You can make with EACH camera VERY GOOD 3D pictures .. click, some
centimeters to right, click ... done. Using (free) StereoPhotoMaker
your perfect 3D pictures are some minutes later - reaaaady."

This seems to be true and, according to my experience, this "technique"
may be enhanced by using the burst shooting mode (e.g. two images per
second) and moving the camera at the same time slowly to the right and
let it take a few pictures.

By StereoPhotoMaker it is then easy combine any two of these successive
images (jpg files) into a single mpo file.

In this way I can now create 3D still images at least of "still targets"
and the 3D effect seems to be about the same as in 3D sweep panorama.

Something like this should be a built-in feature in HX20V instead of
the current "3D still image" mode.
I may upload a sample mpo file to be created after the weather conditions
(hard wind) are improving.
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seytox
8 posts since
Jun 15, 2012

Written on Jun 22, 2012 12:12 PM

Here is now a sample 3D still image created (without the 3D still image mode of the HX20V) by means I described in my previous message
http://www.survo.fi/tmp/DSC00574.MPO (less than 5 MB).

Message was edited by: seytox
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cmosse
302 posts since
Feb 24, 2012

Written on Jun 27, 2012 1:53 PM

"this "technique"
may be enhanced by using the burst shooting mode (e.g. two images per
second) and moving the camera at the same time slowly to the right and
let it take a few pictures."

basically the 3D panorama mode does exactly this. Please note that you can influence the 3D effect (3D base length) by changing the distance from the center of the rotation to the camera. Have you tried the 3D panorama mode in the 16:9 setting?
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seytox
8 posts since
Jun 15, 2012

Written on Jun 28, 2012 10:12 AM

>Have you tried the 3D panorama mode in the 16:9 setting?

Yes, I have tried and it works well producing 3D still images
suitable for viewing on my 3D laptop. However, it is somewhat difficult
determine wherefrom to start sweeping in order to get an image showing
exactly the intended target.
This procedure creates both a jpg file and a mpo file in the 1920x1080
format just appropriate for watching on the screen. For my purposes,
I would like to get (at the same time and without altering the settings
in the camera) still images more accurately (4896x3672 format) as 4:3
pictures. Therefore I still prefer the "technique" I told about earlier.
In any case, the "3D still image" mode described by Sony on the webpage
http://www.sony.co.uk/hub/cyber-shot-3d-camera/3/1
saying that
"Cyber-shot 3D cameras can now take 3D still images using just one lens.
Simply press the button and your camera shoots two images in rapid
succession at different focus settings to create a single 3D still
image..."
seems to be worthless in almost all situations when using HX20V.
Reply
cmosse
302 posts since
Feb 24, 2012

Written on Jun 29, 2012 2:14 PM

the 3D still image mode tries to create an 3D image by applying the 3D depth map technique. So it takes 2 images in short sequence, from which one is set to a certain defocus degree.
Using this technique it is possible to assing each pixel a "distance" value and create some kind of pseudo stereoscopic image.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depth_map
http://www.swell3d.com/2008/07/turn-2d-painting-into-3d-anagl.html

I use the term "pseudostereoscopic" because in fact you do not capture the image from two different viewpoints - which I would call true stereoscopic imaging (and what is actually done when using the 3D panorama mode).

Therefore the 3D effect of this mode is really limited and I think it is easy to understand for someone like you who apparently has deeper knowledge of 3D imaging. I agree that the statements on the product advertisement page are misleading when it comes to the effect of this special 3D mode.
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Jean--Pierre
1 posts since
Mar 29, 2013

Written on Mar 30, 2013 2:16 AM

Hallo,

could you please post some good 3D pictures, taken in this 3d still image mode ?
With those photos all readers might better understand what kind of 3d effect you might expect from this mode, and maybe for which kind of subjects this will be a suitable mode.

I add the link to some examples of "3D still images"; and there I also added 3D pictures of the same subject, produced from 2 consecutive single pictures (marked by ² at the end of the name), processed with the free software "stereo photo maker" - as mentioned on posting of cmosse at 18.06.2012 14:56 in this thread.
http://phereo.com/organizer#515632ffe155856301000003

(Using "stereo photo maker" you can judge the 3D effect even on 2D screens, opening a single .mpo picture and look at it in L&R switching mode (Ctrl-F11). Or use the same software on a 3D screen with adequate display mode.)

My conclusion up to now is the following: For simple 3D scenes, like a person in front of lanscape, this mode might give an acceptable 3D effect. But for more complex scenes, you should use a different method.

Jean Pierre
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3D still images in HX20V

Topic started on Jun 15, 2012 6:11 PM , last reply on Mar 30, 2013 2:16 AM

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